Nina Persson & Staying Creative | MAD Talks S1E5

How do you keep finding creativity in you? I think it's always a good trick creatively if you feel like you're in a rut. Just test the absolute opposite for a second and see how it feels. You don't have to do it, but just see what becomes out of it. And then it might be just a mash-up of it all that is the end result, which is to sort of go to the extremes a little bit. Hi, I'm Melina Shannon-DiPietro, the Executive Director of MAD. This is our new podcast, MAD Talks. For our first season, our founder, René Redzepi, who is also the chef and owner of Restaurant Noma, sits down each week with an iconic speaker from our signature event, MAD Symposium, to talk about food, creativity, and the future we hope to build. In this episode, Renee talks with Nina Persson, the lead singer of The Cardigans, about her work as a musician, how she stays creative, and the role food plays in her life. Hello, hello. Hi, René. How are you? I'm good. How are you? Super well. Thank you so much for doing this. Sure. I was just away for five seconds because I quickly needed to go to the bathroom. And then as I'm leaving the bathroom, a Turkish woman comes up to me and she hands me over sujuk, which is Turkish sausage. And my family are Albanians. And Albanians, they are more or less growing up with a similar food culture as Turks, because we were under the Ottoman Empire for 500 years. And she hands me the sujuk and I'm transported immediately back to my childhood in what used to be Yugoslavia, today's Macedonia. And I'm seeing my uncle carrying a bag of sujuk with him. And us, the kids, we would cheer because, wow, we're getting, you know, this spicy sausage and it would be cooked with eggs. It just made me think of this incredible big childhood moment where food made a difference. And so I decided to, that I want to ask you, if you can go back, what's a childhood memory with food that comes to mind? Well, the first thing I can think of is that, actually, corn on the cob, which is not very Scandinavian at all. Definitely not. Yeah, no, because my dad had a friend who was a farmer fairly near to where I grew up. And that guy used to let us come and pick once a year when it was the harvest. And I just remember, I loved the experience of picking it. We didn't really grow a lot of vegetables in the house where I grew up. So it was a huge event to actually go and get to just be let into the fields and pick it and then get tons of it and eat it. So for a while, that was still one of the best things I know. And it used to be my favorite. Just like once a week, we would have a dinner that would be basically just corn on the cob with butter. And it was my favorite. And I still love it very much. But it's really not like something that has to do with my region or anything. No, I guess not. But corn does grow quite well in our region. And also, it becomes so sweet. And do you remember how old you were, roughly? I would say I would be like 10, 9, 10, 8, 9, 10. 8, 9, 10. Yeah. That's a good first early food memory. If you look into your next part of your life, which would be, let's say, teenager years, and you look back at a food memory, is there something specific you can remember? Your go-to food? I guess I didn't really care. It was a lot of like, also my mom had some food rules. Basically, there were certain things that we weren't supposed to have in the cabinet. And if it was there, I would just eat it. It would be like, you know, terrible food, like crackers, cereal, you know. Yeah, I know. Anything sweet. It's a very typical Scandinavian diet at that time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And especially for a teenager, I guess. But I'm trying to remember. I remember foods that made me feel really, really good. We had other friends. It was a family where the father was a hunter. So they would always have very elaborate dinners where they would cook the game, you know, lovingly prepared. Stews and it would be like mousse, minced mousse or like reindeer stews and stuff. And I remember that really fondly. But I think it was also because it was so clear that, you know, that we was prepared with such love. And, you know, from the very start of the process, obviously. And it was a family that was very dear to me. But that food became very connected to a good feeling. Yeah. I think a lot of people have that when we talk to people. When you truly ask them about their favorite meals, it's rarely at the best restaurants. It's something like what you're just describing now that evokes a deep feeling of belonging or safety. Or the first time they experience, wow, life can be like this, you know, because you're together with a group of people. And you just feel a deep connection. In that period, what was the music like for you? At that time, that was when I was a budding music consumer, I'd say. That's when I started to buy records and listen to music and sort of find my own, sort of what I was drawn to. Find different things. You know, up till then, I think I'd been pretty much, you know, whatever was on the radio consumer. Pop music. You know, we had a chart every Saturday in Sweden that I would listen to that my whole generation did. But that's when I started to sort of sort out a special type of music that I was drawn to myself and start to really dive deeper. Buy records. You know, stay up and listen to it. Sing along. And that whole thing. So what it would be specifically, I think what started to, one of the very first music artists that I realized spoke more intensely to me was, do you remember Susanne Vega when that song Luca came out? Of course. That would be one of the first ones when I really felt like lyrics mattered to me and poetry. Yeah. And then you went further on into your life and you became a part of a very, very successful story. Can you tell us just briefly how that came to be? Well, so that was basically my later teens. I was 18 when I met the other guys in the cardigans. We sort of, I was, the place I'm from, Jönköping. I don't know how familiar you are with Jönköping. I've been to Jönköping. You've been to Jönköping, yeah. I've been to Jönköping. So it's, you might know that it's a place with an especially heavy church presence. So a lot of the music was exercised in churches. Not necessarily religious music, but the cool, the rock bands would be Christian rock. And, you know, every genre you'll think of, they'll have a Christian version of it. We wanted to do music that we found in the British scene. And that whole wave was starting, the Brit pop and, you know, alternative music. That's what we wanted to do. So that's how we found each other. And I was not really doing music yet. I think I was recruited and happy to be part of the group more because I was just happy to find like-minded people. If you think back of those early days of the band, is there a specific moment where food was a thing? Like, if you think back, can you think of something where you can, okay, we're having a moment of success and we're invited to a restaurant or... I'm trying to think if there's a moment where food made a difference to the band. I would say I have like food memories from our career of all levels. I'm really interested in them. We lived in a collective when we, after a couple of years in our hometown, we've all moved to Malmö. And we all lived together in an apartment because we couldn't afford to have our own places. And down the street from us, there was a really cheap, amazing Greek place, Plaka, where we would go and eat the Souvlaki for like 50 kronor, I think at the time. That was good for our budget, but it was delicious. And you could eat it every time. And we did. But I remember, but then we all sort of have been enjoying to go, when you're traveling around touring or doing whatever, constantly on the move, going, I mean, you need to eat every day, obviously. But going to restaurants has been something that's been a break from the grime a little bit. And that would be, I mean, there would be tons of examples. But I remember we did, once when we, we did go, what was it called? It was a restaurant in Copenhagen, Italian, might still be there. It was absolutely amazing. Era Ora. Era Ora, yes. Do you remember? Yeah. Of course I remember. It was a legendary restaurant. Is it not there anymore? Well, the sun took over and changed it into a wine bar. So the premise, it's still there, but it's a wine bar today. Okay. Yeah, we, that was once when we had, we were a couple, like, I would say 10 or 15 years into our career. And we were working a lot in Copenhagen in the medley studios, spending a lot of time in Copenhagen, making a record. And that was the first time we were like, let's just go out and fucking splurge on a great dinner. And we all went. And it was amazing. So you still, you still remember that as a moment. I do. Cause it was, cause I remember it also because it was during a period when we felt like we could afford that. We felt like that's the way we should roll, you know. Amazing. And so if I go a bit back, now you're already a success. You're eating at Michelin star restaurants. I've read somewhere that, that you didn't sing before joining the band. When did you know that you had something special? Well, I knew I had something special. At least I gained a lot of self-confidence. One of the people in this group of friends of my parents that I grew up with during one of these singalongs at the dinner table did turn to me. And it was the first time anybody at all sort of said anything about anybody's singing voice. But he said to me, you sound really good. It was extra heavy to come from him. And in that situation sort of. And I really took that to heart. Yeah, it's beautiful. But I still didn't think that it was going to be my job or anything, but I just felt really warm around singing and that somebody else even could appreciate it was important to me. But then I guess, and then I was really, when I was going to join the band, I basically, it wasn't at all like a very official audition or anything, but they wanted just to hear me sing. So I had to hide, I had to sit like behind the guy's couch, and he had to swear to stay in his kitchen when I was singing for the first time, because I thought it was terrifying. So it took me a while to feel really confident in different situations to just sing, you know, like it was still discovering and still developing. It's funny, because in this podcast series, almost everyone, they have one or two or three moments that really matters to them. And perhaps their life wouldn't have been the same if it wasn't for that one second of somebody noticing you. And, you know, I think about my own moment that I've had in my career, there's a few moments, I'm pretty sure I would not have been where I am if it was not for 30 minutes of my life. What would it be? Was it a teacher? Who was it for you? The first time this happened was a chef. His name is Philippe. And he came one night, I had cooked staff dessert, and I had cooked a pineapple in saffron. Today, that might not seem very daring. But at that time, it was like, wow, he's putting saffron spice on the pineapple. And I did that. And he came back for seconds. And the next day, I'm watching him fiddle with the papers as usual, writing things down, jotling the menu. And that thing is on the menu. Oh, he ripped you off. For me, he, of course, came to me and said, it's on the menu. And to me, it was such an incredible moment of, wow, somebody believes in me. And I think it actually fueled, it's like sparked a flame that I think I'm still living from that specific moment. It's also a really real flattery, in a way that he actually did rip you off, you know, not only said it's like, you know, you can say things to be nice, and you can, to different degrees mean it, but that he actually, you know, really took it on. Yeah, he took it on. And then there was a few other moments later on. He's by far the most influential person in my career, a real father figure for me. Probably your role model to people now. I've been told a few times, and that's really fantastic. Yeah, that would be amazing. Do you think what does what does do you think of that? Ever? I wish I could have told myself that back in the day that one day, you can also I mean, it's a very abstract thing to think about with yourself, you must recognize. Yeah, but then on the other hand, I have lots of young chefs, they come to me and ask for advice. And, you know, they want some guidance. And even if I'm not necessarily particularly interested in actually giving some, I have to, because that has become our position. Yes, I agree. And and I feel like you have that too. I think I do. I have I've been really lucky. I used to, I've been working as a teacher just right next to where you are at the conservatory. Yeah. And that was incredibly gratifying. I think I learned what advice is helpful and what advice is not helpful. And you know, I think that was, I feel like I was the student who gained the most from my time at the conservatory in a way, because it was fantastic. But I can also imagine all these young people there at a moment, and they're so hopeful, and they just need some guidance. And it takes me back to the moment when you're afraid in a kitchen, covering up giving this audition. What was your hopes and your dreams back then? What was like, the young Nina dreaming big about? Well, I was dreaming big, I had, what I had been doing creatively before I joined the band was that I was, I've always been making things like building things and drawing and painting. And so what I was thinking was that I was going to like my friends, like my, all my childhood friends did go to art school and just sort of pursue a path of more fine arts or design or something like that. So, and I had really, so, and I had really, I had really set my mind on that. So to join a band that eventually became a full-time job was not what I had thought that was going to be, but obviously there I was doing something else creative. And so you, at one point you get to live all of this, you're actually traveling the world with your art. Was there ever a moment where you felt like, oh, I've done it now and you sort of lost almost purpose because you achieved that dream or did you always find a new dream? Well, luckily with anything creative, you always feel like you're done with something after a certain amount of time, especially when you're doing well, you must recognize this too. You're doing something well and you get recognition for it, then you're sort of start to repeat it over and over again. For us, that's playing it every night, talking about it in every interview and so forth. So you're so tired of the material after a while. So you have to do a 360 and almost go to the opposite end of the, of your sort of creative spectra. I think that's very daring that you guys do that. We wouldn't have survived otherwise. I think for us, that was really just a way to feel alive and to feel like we had agency in our career. You know, we had, we were, we were fulfilling so many people's wishes and dreams by just sort of going on these tours, you know, it becomes a big machine after a while. So it was our, just our way of being like digging down our heels and be like, yeah, but leave us alone in the creative space. And if you leave us alone, we will give you something that you're going to be happy with. That's amazing. I can totally relate to what you're saying because, I mean, we often discuss this in our team here that, you know, the success we've had has been amazing. It given us so many opportunities, but it also limits you in many ways. The few things that determine your success becomes what people want a lot of again and again. And you find yourself repeating slight versions of that constantly until you just can't take it anymore. You're like, I need, I need something different. And I always say that in order for us to be NOMA, we have to change. That is sort of at, at, at the heart of it. So I, I truly relate to that. But on the other hand, finding the creativity, seeing the opportunities is not always easy. How do you find opportunities? How do you keep finding creativity in you? Well, there's one thing to talk about us as the band, The Cardigans, because we had a very specific way to work. And we sometimes would have to, like you say, do the work of finding creativity. It's a bit of research in a way, I think. It's a matter of, of course, to like sniff at what you're interested in, but sort of just steer your eye. Rather turn your eye to, towards what's like, wait, what's, what's interesting about this? Okay. You know, it doesn't make sense to dive into that sort of a dig and turn that upside down and see how you can sort of morph that with who you are. Does the whole band think like that? Because it's unusual thinking. Most people want to stay in the comfortable couch. You're basically getting up with the comfortable couch and saying, hey, there's a door. I don't know what's behind it. That's where I need to be. Do you all think like that? I think so. I think we, we were also really early on encouraged to think like that. Thanks to, here's another person that meant a lot to, to, to our band, our first producer, Tore Johansson. The reason why we moved to Malmö, basically. He, the moment we started to work with him, he had listened to all our demos. He basically told us that the songs that I actually liked the most of ours, he's like, that's bullshit. Because it sounds like he sort of fucking insulted us. He said, I can't really, it's very cultural. I can't really say exactly what he said, but he said, just skip that and let's work with this. And then he just turned it upside down, you know, and treated it. He's like, skip all the boring acoustic guitars. Let's plug in the craziest pedals and whatever. Whatever. So he sort of started to enthuse us to, to flip things upside down and to kill our darlings really early on. But what came out, you know, that, that made us curious in the, all the opportunities, you know, that we hadn't seen yet. So I think to, I think it's always a good trick, creative, creatively. If you feel like you're in a rut, just to try to just test the absolute opposite for a second and see how it feels. You don't have to do it, but just see what becomes out of it. And then it might be just a mashup of it all. That is the end result, but just to sort of go to the extremes a little bit. So back then you took a lot of advice. I would assume that it was almost against your better judgment, but you allowed something or someone else to say, please follow me here. Um, and you did that. I think that is in itself is also daring. I think too many people are way too stubborn and they don't allow some sort of experience to actually say, come here and let me do that. I think that's was also very daring, but it's true. There is a factory element to it. You know, it's like turn on the factory and, uh, the creative moment happens very briefly actually. And then it's like delivering this creativity again and again and again and again until, until you're like, I can't just can't live with this anymore. I need something else because, um, factory style work is really what kills me the most. You know, this year for the MAD Symposium, we have a theme that's called built to last. And we've chosen this because at the restaurant, Noma, we're in a transformational phase where we're trying to envision ourselves into the year 2070. I'll be in my late nineties, but, uh, maybe I'm around at least that's, uh, that's what I would like to hope. And this is a thought that happened to me in the beginning of the pandemic. First lockdown, all these thoughts came traveling through me that I've been laying in the background and suddenly I had time for them to pass through me. And one of the ones was, what is the point actually in the long run? What do we want to achieve with this? And then I saw myself as a very old man. And I saw a organization that was groundbreaking in the world of food that participated in much larger questions than just serving 40 people every night, but a vector for change within the food system. And, um, um, I also saw an organization that was thriving full of the best people that could truly, um, uh, take care of people in the best way. And, you know, it was like a shock to me to experience all this because it questioned everything we're working on at that point and how we were working and was it the right path and that forced us to change a lot. And then as I was speaking to people about all of this, you realize that most people don't really think two, three, four, five years ahead. They don't really have necessarily a mission with their work or anything like that. And I saw the, the, the, the need for a change for us to be Noma in the longterm. What is the longterm game for you? My longterm game is to, I just want things to be, I want to say economical, but I don't, I don't mean necessarily financial by that. I mean that I don't want to shock my system in a way. I want to make choices that are going to be building on the building blocks to something else. You see what I mean? That what all my choices are going to be something that I'm going to, the consequences of my choices next year and in five years and in 30 years. You see what I mean? Yeah. So I am actually thinking that might make me sometimes careful and limited, but I, and I, and I know that it has also, but I feel like I am mostly thankful for it because it's proven that I have. And because I'm living like this, I feel like I have made big arches that I'm very happy about. Do you see what I mean? And I think that I'm, especially now, I think that I'm, I've had, I've been in this band for over 30 years and I have a certain, I mean, I have a chunk of things that are behind me. And where I'm at is what I've been building is based on my choices. Do you see what I mean? So I think that what I have, by thinking of that, everything is a building block that is going to have some kind of consequence. Um, I'm actually also sitting here being quite happy with what I've done to, to things, you know, and what I, and also happy about the choices I didn't make and, and, you know, what I also choose not to do. Wow. That's incredible. It's a, you sound like a Zen Buddhist monk, basically. Thing is that I'm not, but I think my biggest lesson was really to learn to say, no, I don't, I know I'm not the only one in the world. It's a hard lesson, but I think what I'm understanding now was giving me some sort of peace is that all my, everything I said no to, and was so fucking stressed about turning people down, saying no to possibly being difficult. All of that. I'm totally happy with now because it was right. You know, and that helps me a little bit to get better at saying no in the moment too. Still not easy, but I think that it's, um, so I'm not Zen, but I think I'm, I've just understood that it's wise also. The things you don't do are also wise kind of. Yeah. I think this, the fear of disappointing people, oh, it, it makes a lot of people make decisions. They don't want to, because they don't want others to be unhappy. And so they'd rather be unhappy. Yeah. And other people, they might suddenly one day, they're not happy anyway. So then you've just disappointed yourself ultimately, because you didn't even please them in the long run. You know, we've spoken to mostly people in our industry for the POSCAT series about Madden, and you're kind of the first one in a different field. And when we talk about the future, and it's very true, you cook a meal and the inevitable fact of a meal is that 24 hours later, you flush it out the toilet. Whereas food is literally the shit. The podcast could be called this, the series, but your music stays. And the question was, how does that make you feel? You know, you, you will be listened to probably forever. It makes me feel good. I don't have a ton of, you know, thoughts about my own, you know, epitaph or tombstone. But it makes me feel like I'm good. But do you think about Legacy? There's been a couple of years when I've been actually sort of reminded of it, because it's been a bit of a, you know, for us as a band, we've gone through, you know, highs and lows and being incredibly uninteresting to people for periods, and then periods when suddenly it's interesting again. And right now it's the 90s are just so interesting to kids, and it's so all over popular culture, that we are just experiencing it a bit of a heyday with new generations discovering it and using it on TikTok and just and also like grabbing it and doing their own thing out of our music and so forth. So I've been just sort of a little bit, I've been sort of confronted with Legacy. Lately, and sort of asked about it and also just seeing it myself a little bit we have I mean, suddenly our record label got very excited about us again, when they saw that people on TikTok were excited about it, you know, so it's also been experiencing that there's something to exploit in the Legacy. This makes me feel because I've had periods when I've been wondering what the hell I've done with my life because I basically just did the one thing. And I also basically just know one thing. But I did it, I worked very hard when I was very young, and I worked a lot for many years. So this makes me feel like this is what it feels like to to harvest sort of because it's been because it's been for periods. It's been like a tough job to have and it's taking a toll for periods and it's been, you know, I've sacrificed things. It makes me feel also like, okay, good. This is a nice time in your life when you get to feel like, all right, shit, that was something. It's also a kind of job that can feel incredibly superficious, vain kind of. So it also feels like, yeah, but it's obviously it's meant something. It sure has, Nina. Thank you so much. Thank you for taking the time. Thanks for having me. That was a great hint for staying creative over the long haul. Make choices that are building blocks to something else. Thanks for listening to MAD Talks. And please come back next week for a new episode with another fascinating speaker from MAD Symposium. This podcast was produced by Sidsel Kaae Nørgaard and made by MAD. To learn more about us and our work within hospitality, make sure to follow us on socials @themadfeed, Sign up for our newsletter, or check us out at madfeed.co. Thank you.